Help Me Settle an Argument with my Guild Over Weapon Req. - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Shonmi Woolyhead · Sep 03, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

You're both correct, in a way.

Weapon damage is calculated in two steps:

1. Do you meet the requirements?

If so, the full stated range (i.e. 15-22 for swords) is used.
If not, half of the stated range (8-11) is used.

2. What is your current weapon attribute level?

Using Ensign's Game Mechanics article:

You got #2 right, but no, both are not right... from that same article:

Quote:

Weapon Requirements

Many of the weapons that you'll find require you to have a certain level in a linked attribute to be effective - Swords that require 9 Swordsmanship, Bows that require 7 Marksmanship, and the like. If you do not meet the requirements on a given weapon, your effectiveness with it will be greatly reduced.

In simplest terms, if you do not meet the requirements on a given weapon it will deal damage like a newbie weapon of the same type. Thus, if you find a 10-20 wand but don't meet the requirements, it'll deal damage like a pathetic 2-4 wand of the same type. However, the weapon will keep all modifiers. Thus, if you were using a 14-20 Sword of Enchanting (+20% enchantment durations) and didn't meet the requirements, it would only deal the 2-4 damage, but you would still get the +20% enchantment duration from the modifier. This includes internal modifiers - some weapons have built-in additions to damage, and these will remain even if you don't meet the requirements. This is most readily apparent on a focus - if you find a normal +10 focus and don't meet the requirement, you will only get +3 energy from equipping it. However, if you get a +12 focus - a +10 focus with an internal +2 modifier - you'll get 5 energy from equipping it, even if you don't meet the requirement. Thus you are always better off using a weapon with a requirement you can reach - unless the only thing you want access to is the weapon's modifiers.

As an additional point, the damage for that 10-20 wand doesn't have to be same as a different 10-20 wand. One wand could do the 2-4 he mentions above, while another, looking exactly the same could do 4-6. It may have changed in the year since I read about it, but all weapons have two damage ranges, one for if you meet the reqs, and one for when you don't. I believe the damage range for when you don't meet the reqs can be any that a no-requirement weapon can have.

This anyone here can check: Look at all your +12 focuses -- some will give you the +3 energy mentioned in the article above, but some will give more, up to +6.

Please, as the sticky says, be sure of your info before you post. It's important not to give misinformation out in these forums. And the posting of links as confirmation to your info was a very good idea.

Shonmi Woolyhead · Sep 03, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by elLOCOmutha

Does this take into account the +20 damage if customized and the damage in stance etc..? Or is that included in the req.?

The chart there is the base. Add on any modifiers, such as customization, etc.

edit:
More accurately, multiply by modifier, so for the +20% customised modifier, multiply the damage by 1.20.

Savio · Sep 03, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Actually, I suppose I should clarify: Ensign's article is fairly old, and a few things have been discovered or changed since then. Since you brought it up:

1. There are two categories of weapons: PvP, collector, crafter, and green items fall into one category, and dropped items (excluding greens) are in another. My post was specifically dealing with dropped, max-damage items with variable requirements (which is what this thread was about).

With dropped weapons, not meeting the requirement halves base damage. With the other weapons, not meeting the requirements gives you starter weapon damage.
With dropped focii, not meeting the requirement gives you 6 base energy - if the max energy for the focus is greater than 6. With 6 or less base energy, not meeting the requirement gives you 3 energy. With non-dropped items, not meeting the requirement always gives you 3 energy.

2. Dropped weapons with non-max damage can have an inherent +damage modifier. For example, an 10-18 sword could have a damage +1 modifier. But you don't see it because the game will display the sword as a 11-19 sword, and you'd never know the difference unless you didn't meet the requirement. A good example is 7-20 axes; normal max damage is 6-28, but there are non-max axes with an additional +1 damage, resulting in the 7 minimum damage. Non-max focii can also have an inherent +energy modifier which you also will never see unless you don't meet requirements.

There's another thread here concerning requirements, but a couple of posters who didn't know what they were talking about also posted in that thread. Also, there's an old discussion about hidden inherent modifiers here. It's all particularly messy and nobody cares to test it (who cares about what happens when you don't meet the requirements on a non-max weapon?) so it's better just to stick with max weapons and their requirements.

Ima Hob0 · Sep 04, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

for me, i always have high stats so higher req is cheaper ya bunch of morons

JK

Shonmi Woolyhead · Sep 04, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Actually, I suppose I should clarify: Ensign's article is fairly old, and a few things have been discovered or changed since then. Since you brought it up:

1. There are two categories of weapons: PvP, collector, crafter, and green items fall into one category, and dropped items (excluding greens) are in another. My post was specifically dealing with dropped, max-damage items with variable requirements (which is what this thread was about).

With dropped weapons, not meeting the requirement halves base damage. With the other weapons, not meeting the requirements gives you starter weapon damage.
With dropped focii, not meeting the requirement gives you 6 base energy - if the max energy for the focus is greater than 6. With 6 or less base energy, not meeting the requirement gives you 3 energy. With non-dropped items, not meeting the requirement always gives you 3 energy.

2. Dropped weapons with non-max damage can have an inherent +damage modifier. For example, an 10-18 sword could have a damage +1 modifier. But you don't see it because the game will display the sword as a 11-19 sword, and you'd never know the difference unless you didn't meet the requirement. A good example is 7-20 axes; normal max damage is 6-28, but there are non-max axes with an additional +1 damage, resulting in the 7 minimum damage. Non-max focii can also have an inherent +energy modifier which you also will never see unless you don't meet requirements.

There's another thread here concerning requirements, but a couple of posters who didn't know what they were talking about also posted in that thread. Also, there's an old discussion about hidden inherent modifiers here. It's all particularly messy and nobody cares to test it (who cares about what happens when you don't meet the requirements on a non-max weapon?) so it's better just to stick with max weapons and their requirements.

Well, I guess my info is old then. I wonder when they changed it, and why it wasn't mentioned on the update page.

Savio · Sep 04, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

It's actually been that way since forever, just we didn't always know how it worked. The only thing about requirements that has changed since is the effect of not meeting requirements on shields. Non-dropped shields also used to drop to starter shield stats, making them inferior to gold shields (whose armor would drop to 8) when requirements weren't met. In the July 13th update, this was changed so that all max shields would have equal armor.

Coridan · Sep 04, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

so are u saying that if I had a req 8 sword 11-22 and only had 8 pts in swordsmanship I wouldn't do as much raw damage as I would if I had 12 pts in swordsmanship??? Really Confused...thanks

Akhilleus · Sep 04, 2006, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coridan

so are u saying that if I had a req 8 sword 11-22 and only had 8 pts in swordsmanship I wouldn't do as much raw damage as I would if I had 12 pts in swordsmanship??? Really Confused...thanks

correct.
because regardless of your weapons requirement, and whether or not you meet it, increasing your level in a specific weapon-class will icnrease the overall damage output by a percentage based on diminishing returns.
the main advantage of low req weapons is that you will receive the full base damage of the weapon at a lower requirement.
now, if you use a r7 sword with 7 in swordsmanship and a r13 sword with r13 swordsmanship you will still do less damage witht he former even though you will receive 100% of te base weapon damage in each case.
why?
because with 7 in swordsmanship you are still 5 points under the base-skill modifier, as i will call it (aka req12), and you will receive only 64% of weapon damage, because you are under the "normal" level of 12 into swordsmanship.
you will still do CONSIDERABLY more damage with 7 in swordsmanship and a r7 sword than you would do if that sword were r8 with 7 in swordsmanship, but you will do less than someone using 13/13.
so this may make you wonder "so why the hell then would i ever want a r7/8/9 sword/axe/bow, whatever?"
A: versatility.
every now and then a build calls upon the need to place your points into other categories from your main weapon attribute, and when this happens, a low-req weapon will allow you to negate the halved-damage otherwise incurred, if you mee the requirement.
to meet the requirement of a r13 sword mwans you are losing MAJOR flexibility in terms of builds. a build that may require high str/tactics/blood-magic, whatever, at the cost of swordsmanship, would leave you useless as far as weapon damage is concerned. if, however, you were using a sword with a low req, making it much easier to meet, and you did indeed meet that requirement, then you would essentially be receiving 200% base weapon damage from someone with an identical build, who didnt meet the weapon req.
again, the advantage is that the lower the req, the more versatile you are with builds. if you wish to run a tank build, for example, you probably dont want to put many points into your weapon attribute...they will be going into defensive skills. but with a r7 weapon you may be able to meet the lowered req; receiving a far lower damage penalty than if you didnt meet the req, allowing you to do more melee damage over time...and over time it does add up.
but, perhaps the largest reason for r7 weapons' popularity isnt in the practicality of the evrsatility provided; but in the status symbolism implied by owning one...

Don Zardeone · Sep 04, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Theories are crap, get 2 or 3 weapons, all max damage but with different req, throw in a green or two and then go to isl eo fthe nameless and test it with different attribute amounts.

See for yourself that req doesn't make you do more damage as long as you meet the req.

Sidenote: if you're a warrior with less than 13 in your weapon attribute then I'm not too sure about you being a real warrior o.o

Nexium · Sep 04, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

bah i think the question has been answeard already who cares let ppl think they do more dmg whith low req weapons they are the ones making fools of them selves....

Coridan · Sep 05, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

correct.
because regardless of your weapons requirement, and whether or not you meet it, increasing your level in a specific weapon-class will icnrease the overall damage output by a percentage based on diminishing returns.
the main advantage of low req weapons is that you will receive the full base damage of the weapon at a lower requirement..

thanks for clearing that up man...tis what i thought but reading thru that thread sorta confused me :P....I run atleast 12 in swords at all times anyways...

Silver_Fang · Sep 08, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

A req 7 Max DMG at attribute 11 deal the same dmg as a reg 11 Max DMG at attribute 11.

A req 7 Max DMG at attribute 7 deal less dmg as a reg 11 Max DMG at attribute 11.

The reason isnt because of the what so call diminishing return. The reason is because the weapon attribute grants more damage and critical chance per point.

There is no reason to get a less req weapon than your weapon attribute points. You wont deal extra damage because of it.

Read the following links
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage_Rating_progression

From the second link look at the bottom table and look at the Ensign's table, the result is nearly identical. And look at the notes on the table.

but sets rank 12, level 20 as the "100% damage" mark, for comparisons with treatments often found on other sites. The formula used to compute these values is:

2^((Damage Rating - 60)/40)

which is the AE calculation from the first links

2^(EffDR - EffAR)/40

look carefully, the ensign damage table only apply to EffAR 60, which is caster armor.

We need to have a 2^((Damage Rating - 80)/40) or
2^((Damage Rating - 100)/40) table to show the percentage damage of weapon to warrior armor.

Sep 03, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49	#23
Savio Teenager with attitude Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	Actually, I suppose I should clarify: Ensign's article is fairly old, and a few things have been discovered or changed since then. Since you brought it up: 1. There are two categories of weapons: PvP, collector, crafter, and green items fall into one category, and dropped items (excluding greens) are in another. My post was specifically dealing with dropped, max-damage items with variable requirements (which is what this thread was about). With dropped weapons, not meeting the requirement halves base damage. With the other weapons, not meeting the requirements gives you starter weapon damage. With dropped focii, not meeting the requirement gives you 6 base energy - if the max energy for the focus is greater than 6. With 6 or less base energy, not meeting the requirement gives you 3 energy. With non-dropped items, not meeting the requirement always gives you 3 energy. 2. Dropped weapons with non-max damage can have an inherent +damage modifier. For example, an 10-18 sword could have a damage +1 modifier. But you don't see it because the game will display the sword as a 11-19 sword, and you'd never know the difference unless you didn't meet the requirement. A good example is 7-20 axes; normal max damage is 6-28, but there are non-max axes with an additional +1 damage, resulting in the 7 minimum damage. Non-max focii can also have an inherent +energy modifier which you also will never see unless you don't meet requirements. There's another thread here concerning requirements, but a couple of posters who didn't know what they were talking about also posted in that thread. Also, there's an old discussion about hidden inherent modifiers here. It's all particularly messy and nobody cares to test it (who cares about what happens when you don't meet the requirements on a non-max weapon?) so it's better just to stick with max weapons and their requirements. __________________ People are stupid.

Sep 04, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20	#26
Savio Teenager with attitude Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	It's actually been that way since forever, just we didn't always know how it worked. The only thing about requirements that has changed since is the effect of not meeting requirements on shields. Non-dropped shields also used to drop to starter shield stats, making them inferior to gold shields (whose armor would drop to 8) when requirements weren't met. In the July 13th update, this was changed so that all max shields would have equal armor. __________________ People are stupid.

Sep 04, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10	#24
Ima Hob0 Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Aug 2006 Guild: None Profession: W/	for me, i always have high stats so higher req is cheaper ya bunch of morons JK

Sep 04, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39	#27
Coridan Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: US Guild: Old Married Gamers {OMG} Profession: W/	so are u saying that if I had a req 8 sword 11-22 and only had 8 pts in swordsmanship I wouldn't do as much raw damage as I would if I had 12 pts in swordsmanship??? Really Confused...thanks

Sep 04, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31	#29
Don Zardeone Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2005	Theories are crap, get 2 or 3 weapons, all max damage but with different req, throw in a green or two and then go to isl eo fthe nameless and test it with different attribute amounts. See for yourself that req doesn't make you do more damage as long as you meet the req. Sidenote: if you're a warrior with less than 13 in your weapon attribute then I'm not too sure about you being a real warrior o.o

Sep 04, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31	#30
Nexium Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2006	bah i think the question has been answeard already who cares let ppl think they do more dmg whith low req weapons they are the ones making fools of them selves....

Sep 08, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39	#32
Silver_Fang Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester UK Profession: Rt/	A req 7 Max DMG at attribute 11 deal the same dmg as a reg 11 Max DMG at attribute 11. A req 7 Max DMG at attribute 7 deal less dmg as a reg 11 Max DMG at attribute 11. The reason isnt because of the what so call diminishing return. The reason is because the weapon attribute grants more damage and critical chance per point. There is no reason to get a less req weapon than your weapon attribute points. You wont deal extra damage because of it. Read the following links http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage_Rating_progression From the second link look at the bottom table and look at the Ensign's table, the result is nearly identical. And look at the notes on the table. but sets rank 12, level 20 as the "100% damage" mark, for comparisons with treatments often found on other sites. The formula used to compute these values is: 2^((Damage Rating - 60)/40) which is the AE calculation from the first links 2^(EffDR - EffAR)/40 look carefully, the ensign damage table only apply to EffAR 60, which is caster armor. We need to have a 2^((Damage Rating - 80)/40) or 2^((Damage Rating - 100)/40) table to show the percentage damage of weapon to warrior armor.